Selling to the People Who Are Already in Your Audience with Colie James

Ever feel like you're constantly creating content for strangers on social media? If so, are you doing it while ignoring the people who've already paid you for your products or services? Yeah, we need to talk about that.

In this final episode of 2025, my friend Colie James joins me to call out the exhausting cycle of chasing new leads when the people most likely to say yes are already in your world—your former clients, your email list, even those leads who didn't book the first time. 

We're breaking down why marketing to your actual audience beats talking to strangers in the void, how to stop making assumptions about who will buy from you, and why your first stop for any cash infusion should never be Instagram.

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 EPISODE 176.
Read the show notes and view the full transcript here: https://erinollila.com/selling-to-the-people-who-are-already-in-your-audience-with-colie-james/

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Learn all about our guest expert, Colie James
Colie James is a Disney-loving Client Experience Systems Strategist and the host of the Business-First Creatives podcast. Her heart pumps in helping photographers & creative service providers automate their processes, reclaim their time and get back to living! 

With 13+ years in the creative space, Colie believes every creative deserves to build a business that is sustainable and profitable, and no one should quit their 9 to 5 only to work 24/7 [in their business].

The truth—automated systems can save us all from being overworked and overwhelmed.

When Colie isn’t building killer workflows and automations, you can find her spending some much needed time with her husband, James, daughter Chloe, or [you guessed it] at Disneyland. 

When you're done listening to this episode of the podcast with Colie, click through the archives to hear an episode on customer experience and another on Airtable content hubs (or just click those links!) Oh, and she interviewed me on my podcast about my business trajectory, too!

https://erinollila.com/why-is-customer-experience-important-with-colie-james/

https://erinollila.com/erin-ollilas-business-trajectory/

https://erinollila.com/creating-an-airtable-content-marketing-hub/

And then—and only then!—I suggest you head over to HER podcast, Business-First Creatives, to hear even more awesome content from this great guest expert.

Here's the info on your host, Erin Ollila
Erin Ollila believes in the power of words and how a message can inform – and even transform – its intended audience. She graduated from Fairfield University with an M.F.A. in Creative Writing, and went on to co-found Spry, an award-winning online literary journal.

When Erin’s not helping her clients understand their website data or improve their website copy, you can catch her hosting the Talk Copy to Me podcast and guesting on shows such as Profit is a Choice, Mindful Marketing, The Power in Purpose, and Business-First Creatives.

Stay in touch with Erin Ollila, SEO website copywriter:
• Learn more about my VIP intensive options or just book a strategy session to get started right away
• Visit Erin's website to learn more about her business, services, and products

Transcript

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. Alright, Coley, tell me one thing. What do you see that your clients are struggling with when they're looking to, you know, make more money but they're doing something that maybe isn't the smartest marketing decision? I feel like they're listening to the people that tell them go post on Instagram some more And I'm like do you actually know that you have clients on Instagram I mean Yeah. have the data to back it up Like if you are actually someone who goes to Instagram and posts and you get like two or three leads hey Bravo to you That's definitely Yeah. But I feel like I've been on this kick recently where people are not marketing to the people that are actually more likely to tell you Yes And that's the people that have already paid you And so whenever I get somebody in my world that's like you know I need to fill three more spots or you know I'm I'm looking to hit an income goal of this much And I'm like okay did you send an email to your current clients And they always look at me like deer in headlights And I'm like your first stop anything should be the people who have already paid you That you've already provided that good customer experience for. So like they would be not only like trustworthy, like you don't have to build trust there, but there's that level of opportunity for like excitement because like, okay, like what else can we do together? Tell me more about this Coley. Um. But so I, I am gonna interrupt you before we kind of go into this though, 'cause I'm gonna play devil's advocate for a second. What do you say when someone says that they don't have a business that has many, like, repeat, re reoccurring clients? You know what I hear that a lot I usually hear it from the wedding photographers because Yeah. I mean I've been married to one man for 25 years and I didn't have wedding photography the first time but if I got remarried like do you know what I'm saying Like that is an Yeah. that you don't necessarily need to repeat So there are quite a few wedding photographers that when they push back on that I say okay But what are you doing for referrals And then they look at me and I'm like yeah the thing about being married is that when you are getting married you likely have lots of friends who are also in the same stage of life that are getting married And so Sometimes when you are trying to get more money from your current clients it isn't about them rehiring you It is about them sharing the process of working with you because they likely have someone in their circle of friends or like business besties who could use whatever it is that you do Yeah, a hundred percent. I, I've had clients in somewhat similar situations as well, and they'll say like, I, it's just not a repeating business and I don't wanna have like a paid referral program because I really truly like to vet my. Clients and customers. You don't need a paid referral program. You just need good relationships, right? Like you can make like a little lick star on your like client sheet and that says clients you really liked working with and clients that you think might have a good network that you could tap into. And then just send a personal email that says like, Hey Coley, I loved working with you. I'm looking to. Bring more clients in. I'm looking to do these mini sessions. I'm looking to do X, Y, Z. Do you know anyone that is also, you know, that could benefit from something like this that is like that you can skip the whole paid referral part and literally just communicate like human to human to get the same type of result I do feel like when people say paid referral program it's like they imagine that people are all of a sudden gonna go spread their services just so that they You. Now most people will talk about you whether you ask them to or not but some Totally. might put forth just a tiny bit more effort if they know that it's important to you I mean I I love talking about the people that I've worked with successfully Like I want everyone to kind of experience the same thing that I did with a service provider and I don't care if they're gonna pay me for the referral or not Mm-hmm. why I do it I do it because I had a great experience and I think other people should get it as well And so then also can we just take a step back and say that it doesn't even need to be like a paid referral Like I often encourage my photographer clients if you're gonna ask your clients for a referral or you're gonna ask them to share about you on their socials or whatever it is it could just be that you give them a gift not that you're giving them cash And for those of us that sell products out of a gallery I've started encouraging people you can just give them print credit Like go into your gallery software and give them a $25 credit so that they can buy an eight by 10 image and go on about your business That is not something that is going to be you know like troublesome for you It takes like three minutes but Yeah, totally. You don't do it I still think you need to be asking people to share their experience of working with you and that will naturally bring in more like-minded clients Yeah. And, and as for the print credit, I mean, think about it this way, you're, you're likely gonna make more money, right? So like you give someone a credit in your shop, they will. Potentially, and most likely spend more than the credit that you're giving them. So it's a smart business decision for that. And I think that there's, there's something I wanna say. You said, can we jump back? And I was like, yes. Because I really wanted to jump back. I went too far forward with that repaid referral thing. When it comes to, you brought up a, the good example of the wedding photographer.'cause I, I think that makes perfect sense. It's easy to assume that, you are likely not going to need a wedding photographer many times in your life, but that does not mean that they cannot have products geared toward their former clients. Okay. So you have what we just mentioned, actual print stuff, right? Maybe you run, , a flash sale on. Memory books or any type of things that are related to the actual wedding. But one way to be creative about it, and this wouldn't, this won't work for all photographers, but think of like, how can you , accent like the next phase of life. Now that does not mean you need to go take baby pictures. That is not my suggestion. But what is the number one most neglected thing as adults get married and, and move through different stages? That relationship. So do an anniversary shoot. Like do like a popup tiny little thing where you are like, you know, one year anniversary of your wedding or you take out some wedding memorabilia, whatever it is. Not, not, not all wedding photographers are gonna like that. They're gonna be like, no thank you. I have no, no interest in that. But if it is something and you're trying to, have a cash infusion or you just want to fill time because in the wedding industry, it's very seasonal. That's a great option is to just try to think to yourself, how can I be more creative with this? It doesn't have to be something you do long term, but something that you can adjust for, you know, temporary measures now one of the things that I will say about like wedding photographers because I do come across more and more of them that will only do weddings They're like no I don't wanna do anniversary sessions I don't wanna do families I just wanna do weddings the thing that I always tell them is that's okay for you guys I mean let's talk about referrals Let's talk about you know increasing your lifetime client value in other ways But for those that actually do do those other like Photography sessions later in life I find that more and more they don't talk about them and they're not on their website because I mean you're the SEO expert right Erin Um Oh, come on, please. I have to interrupt you. Photographers and like home contractors are my favorite people to ever talk about, like ever because photographers have them. Most beautiful pictures and they like refuse to put words on their website because here's the deal. Same thing with home contractors. For the most part, word of mouth or local, advertisement of sorts gets you booked. So you are comfortable being booked. Where if you invest more heavily in your website, you could be. Booked with much better clients at a better rate, in a way that feels better for your lifestyle. But I, and listen, I'm not picking on you photographers. I, I love you all, but like photographers just get lazy and, and lean on those images instead of sorry for interrupting you, Cooley, doing things like SEO be, that could be serve them so much better so they don't have to worry about things like cash infusions or whatever.'cause they're just increasing a. Better client load for them. End Ran. Please continue my sincere apologies. Okay Where I was actually going with this is when it comes to like if they're really focused on their SEO which I my clients tend to be like I do have people that understand the words that go on the page and maybe that's because I rant about it constantly But what I do find is that if they are really trying to mostly do weddings and they kind of think of families and all of those other things as bourgeois for example as like a side hustle they actually don't have pages on their website that cover those other types of photography that they do And so sometimes when they're like oh no well I'll do family sessions I'm like okay but your website doesn't have any So how do your wedding clients know that you will do that for them Then there's the deer in the headlight stare And I'm like are you telling them as part of your off-boarding process Hey when you guys are ready when you buy a new house if you're gonna have a family when you start having babies cause of course we can't assume everybody's gonna have babies Don't do that you wanna make sure that they know that if there are future phases of their life where it is appropriate to come back to you for photography that you are actually communicating that especially if those types of photography are not visible on your website for them to just know Yeah. And can we actually, I know we're talking about like, you know, repeat. And like the people actually in your audience right now, but can we talk about leads and them at the same time as it relates to websites? Because look at the client journey that you just mentioned there. If someone is shopping for a wedding photographer. And what they are doing is they're going to many photographers sites and, comparing them against each other, okay? This one has that many hours in the day of event. This one includes an engagement package. This one has like a, you know, a memory book in addition to like a print, package. Like whatever, right? Once they start seeing what your competitors have, if it's not listed on your site. They're, they're kind of marking you off as if, well, this person can't do engagement. If you do engagement, that absolutely needs to be there. But that is the beginning of the client journey. So bringing it back to exactly what you just said, when someone is hiring for a wedding photographer, again, just as an example, this could likely be changed to so many different industries when they are hiring. They are not considering future stages or future use cases of working with this person. When the wedding is complete, they're at a point where they're very excited. They are very pleased., they've built that relationship with their photographer because that person has been behind the scenes of like a very intimate moment in their life and they likely really don't want to lose that touch somehow. So. Even though it needs to be on your website, these ways that they're working, you know, that you can work together. When someone's shopping in the beginning, they're not thinking about like doing an anniversary shoot. They're not thinking about, even ways to, like, again, the memory book type of a thing. They're not like an album. I don't know why I'm calling it a memory. I think it's cute Sorry photographers. It's been a long time since I've been married. It is an album and I know that I have actually written for many photographers before.. Sorry to to finish the point. They're not thinking of these things, so you need it from the beginning because you might have some people who are trying to get the whole kitten caboodle and know that they want something long term. You need it on the website for the end, and you need, this is obviously, this is where you come in to the T I'm talking about marketing, but you are, you are here to talk about systems because you need an offboarding system. That is not a one step thing. It is a like check-in process. It's a happy first anniversary. Like this is my favorite pick from your wedding, whatever. Right? So it's. We're, you know, we're kind of here today to talk about marketing, but I will die on the hill. That marketing and then lead and client experience are so intertwined that people really, I don't know why they have so many blinders on about the fact that like, they're not separate things. They are separate things, but like, they're like, they're so important and to be done well together. I feel like I just hear a lot of noise and maybe it's because I am actively trying to avoid this noise there are so many people that are talking about the fact that you need social media You need to be creating new content whether it's videos or you know carousel posts or graphics or like whatever it is And I feel like it's very easy to get caught in that hamster cycle You know where you are on the wheel of death I call it and you just can't get off like you're creating more content because you think that's gonna bring you the leads Whereas if you just focused on the people who because I talk about systems if you just focused on the people who are already in your CRM Or if you just focused on the people who are already in your email marketing program your Yeah. gets easier because you're not trying to build trust and get Yes. to like opt in At the same time People who were in your Oh. or your email marketing program they opted in somehow You didn't just pull their email out of you know thin air um and put it inside like Somehow they raised their hand and they said yes to you And so what are you doing with the people once they say yes I mean one of the things that I see and I don't really see it so much with service providers well actually maybe I do but like someone inquires about your service And they don't book you And it's like those people are dead to you It's like oh they didn't book me It's like it's like everybody has this imaginary you know Oh my God. Yeah. window like they inquired and I'm giving them the pitch And if they don't hire me oh it's always gonna be a no And so they just kind of cross them off and instead of trying to figure out what it is that you could do with that person that is already inside of your world to get them to convert to be a client eventually you just run off and start looking for a new person That is so exhausting Like why is it that people feed into this constant need To bring in more people over and over again instead of just trying to like increase the conversion rate of the people that you already have by just a tiny bit I mean a 1 increase in your conversion rate for some people means thousands of dollars at the end of the year Yes. and so why are we not talking about this more No, I agree. You know, to your point of like, uh, you have to like completely cut off leads. I hear this all the time. I find it absolutely fascinating. Like what the actual f people, like, I have so many like personal stories or antidotes that I can think of, of why I did not purchase at a specific time, but like as the client or the potential, you know, the lead here. Never in my life did I think that that person would just suddenly feel like this is a, not that people personalize it, but like, okay, that's done. We're like, we can't speak now because like, you know, I remember once I was gonna go into a, um, I guess it would be like a business course or community maybe in the first. I dunno, four years of my business, but I was also pregnant at the time, and all I could think of was, I'm not stupid. I've done this for four years now. I know exactly how much effort and everything that this takes, and why would I want to spend all of this money if I am not convinced that I have the energy, right? Like, not even the time, because I've had children who don't sleep. So I know that there's just never a time, but like I don't even know if I had the energy to give my full self, what a waste of my money it is. That has nothing to do with the quality of that program. That has nothing to do with the price of that program. So I really like to remind people to think of their own experience as the lead or the customer before they start to, again, I don't think personalize is the right word, but it kind of is personalized or make business decisions on how we. Speak to our one-time leads or our formal leads, because as long as you are not being a sleazy salesperson, there are so many ways to nurture past leads in a kind way, right? Like, you don't have to email them every week and be like, remember that time you reached out to me? Like, good God, no, don't do that. But like, what if you emailed them like two or three months later and, and you were like, oh. I remember you were looking for this and totally fine that you're, you decided not to move forward or it just wasn't the right time for you. I actually have this popup offer. Would you like to learn more about it? No pressure. I won't even send a word of sales copy until I hear that you're interested or just, Hey, I was thinking of you. I know it wasn't the right time when we spoke last time, but are you still thinking of going in this direction? Is there anything I can help you with? Right, like there's just so many opportunities too. Speak to former leads and. I don't know. I see this too. I, I, I don't think about it as often as, you know, maybe I should. It really tends to kind of come up more like situationally, but like, I think the problem is truly conditioning that we need a bigger audience or we need to like increase our,. Network, our audience. And that has become so ingrained in business owners. And I think actually this is where the problem is. You know, you said this like nurture people on your email, nurture people on your CRM, but it is extremely obvious to those people when they are being ignored. Like, and, and you know how they know that because your marketing is talking to you. I don't know, someone outside of their current realm, someone not in their, you know, their needs set. It could be clear that maybe, , I see this especially for people who do, , work with DIYers and done with you people. When clients will come to me and they'll say, you know, I make a ton of money working with this, set, but I think I can make even more money with like a done for you client. So like, I only wanna speak to people who want to like offboard this pay premium prices. I no longer wanna speak to these DIYers who might hire me for like, you know, a three month retainer for a couple of calls, whatever. Okay. If that is your business decision, a hundred percent you are. You're welcome. And I encourage any pivot that you would like, but I wanna break this down for a second. I hear from them, they're making good money. I often hear that they do like this type of clientele, but they have imagined a a completely different clientele could. Do even more for them. Like this is all about them and their business. So what they do is they start to be more vocal about, you know, don't waste your time. You know, like, you know, you are, once you've reached a higher phase in business, you can offload this, right? Like it all ends up kind of being negating that experience of the di iyer and negating that experience of the done with you people. The people in your audience who are actively paying you, who are pleased with their, like, you know, client experience who refer you to people and you're taking this, I don't, it's not even a risk. You're just leading your business on assumptions that you could do better elsewhere. So you're. You're pivoting your marketing and you're ignoring the people who actually are supporting you. Again, huge caveat. If you want to change your business, please do. Like, don't, don't. This is not a judgment thing from me and Coley to say like, you cannot speak to a different like audience. Go ahead and do that if you want. But I think with marketing, when people started to get, um. Maybe that like feast or famine in their business, or just a fear that they're not succeeding or just overwhelmed with this noise that they hear online. The way that they react is what you said, produce a 10 times more content and it's very often speaking not exactly to their current audience or their current clientele. So it doesn't serve you to ignore the people who are actually paying you, and it's wasting your time. Like, oh my God. The amount of content that we is on the internet, like. We're all sick of it, but we're all not. We are all, I don't wanna No I'm pull everyone into it. Yeah. We're, no, we're, we're all sick of it, but the majority of us play into it and wait and create content and add to the noise. So, I mean, it seems like the answer to that's kind of simple of stop doing that. Yes but it's also it's kind of interesting cause while you were talking I was listening to you talk about you know like you've been doing DIY you've been serving that particular audience well and you're wanting to move into your done for you And one thing that I've heard from a couple different coaches and I've always pushed back on them they're like okay but no like if you're continuously marketing your DIY You could have someone who's potentially a great fit for your done for you and they might cheapen out is the word that they would use and just buy the DIY And I have always pushed back and said no I don't give a shit which one they start with And they're like what I'm like no Like if they get the DIY And Yeah. there and they don't finish or circumstances change because I had a lot of people who were totally capable of DIY when they bought my course but then all of a sudden you know the season changed and now they've got 20 clients that they're that they're trying to help And so then they're like Hey co Like I know I bought your course but can I just upgrade and have you do it for me To which I always said yes And now I'm seeing the same thing in my done with you I'm actually getting people who originally did the DIY they originally did the done for you and they're coming back to me for my new done with you container because they want to get their hands dirty And Yeah. I would just really discourage anybody from like looking at your audience and trying to classify them as like DIY or done for you or looking at them and automatically assuming that they want one offer based on a budget because I have plenty of people My audience who could have afforded to pay me for my done for you and they just didn't want to because at the end of the day they wanted to make sure that they understood the systems And so you know don't market to somebody's presumed budget Like that is not where you should be going with your business And you know if you're doing a good job of delivering if you're doing a good job of identifying what the end result is from each of your offers if they choose wrong They will correct themselves they will do Yes. And so I mean my only thing was every once in a while I would remind my course students Hey just so that you remember like I have this done for you I don't do this anymore So you know just putting it out there when I was still doing done for you I would just every once in a while say okay you know If you haven't gotten your systems done would you like to have a conversation about working with me and having me finish it for you And Yeah. always liked that because if they had done any part of the course they were already more knowledgeable than they would've been if they hired me for done for you to start like they looked A majority of them they looked at the course materials they saw what I was suggesting as the overall client experience and then we often customized it more in done for you But like they came into that container more knowledgeable than they were when they were in the DIY now I have always been I am marketing my results and not necessarily the container in which you get them but I'm in a unique position in that my course and now my done with you both of those give you the same results Finished systems inside of Dodo or HoneyBook So I'm talking about what you'll have on the other side and then we can have a more nuanced conversation about how we're getting there But if I was trying to fill spots for my Done With You my first stop is not Instagram My first stop is not threads My first stop is okay out of all these students that I've had in this course which ones are probably feeling like it's time to make changes in their systems or that they never fully Fix or finish the systems that they started I mean that's Yeah. because they knew that you were the person to help them with it Maybe they just made a bad choice Maybe you need Mm-hmm. another offer to them and they will be able to go in that direction Yeah. And honestly, again, I think this is a lot about assumptions. Like we make so many assumptions in business and everyone does. I talk a lot about it in general just 'cause of messaging and like brand messaging work that I do with clients because I'm actually studying data because I'm interviewing former clients because I'm doing customer and competitor research like. Away from them, meaning I will ask my clients to gimme ideas of like who their competitors or clients are and like what they like or dislike, let's say. But I don't look at that until I do my own research so that I can then compare their assumptions against once what I actually find on the big, old wide world of the internet. Um, it's very wrong all the time. It's often very wrong. I You jump on in girlfriend. want you to gloss over data So one of the things that I wanted to Thank you. minutes ago when you were talking about the data is people do make a lot of assumptions And so can we go back to that If you join my email list and you don't buy my offer within a week you're dead to me and you're just never gonna buy from me You need data On how long it actually takes people inside of your audience to make a purchase And I always encourage people to do it in Airtable you know what day did they join your email list and then what day did they make their first purchase Everybody should be calculating the number of days that it takes between those two whether you're automatically doing it an Airtable or you're manually doing it every time you make a sale That is data That is what's gonna help you figure out how to nurture your audience better because the assumption that if they don't buy in the first week they're just never gonna buy is likely to be blown out of the water If you figure out that it takes somebody an average of a hundred days on your Yeah. in order to buy something now am also one of those people for a very long time Aaron 70 to 80 of the people who were buying my offers were not on my email list First I was converting people off of sales pages Great But it doesn't mean that they weren't getting nurtured Lots of those Yeah. were hearing me on other people's podcasts They're listening to my podcast because hello We don't know Who's listening to our podcast I mean there's no way for us to track that So Pause. If you're not, hold up. Pause everyone. Oh. You know, before we, uh, move on from this, uh, podcast episode today, you need to go and subscribe to Coley James' podcast, which is Business First Creatives. Um, as a funny story, last night I actually happened to be at dance. My children's dance studio and I had a parent who was sitting pretty close to me in a chair and I realized I had not shared my own podcast link. So I pulled up Apple Podcasts just 'cause it was the first thing that when I typed in POD in my Chrome extension bar thing over there, it pull, it came up and she said, oh, what are you, subscribed to? And it's literally. Business First creatives Talk Copy to Me. What now With Trevor Noah. And I just got such a kick out of that because I do, I do listen to so many more shows, but the only three podcast I am subscribed to are yours, mine, and my boyfriend Trevor Noah. So, sincere apologies. This is the second time I've interrupted you. Time number three and you know, I get in trouble. So please continue. I apologize. No it's all good Okay How are you only subscribed to three podcasts I'm I don't, I, 60 honestly don't know. I think I, I have no clue because I, I hear them, I see new episodes come in. I don't, I don't know, I don't know if I'm, I don't know what I'm doing, what's happening, but yeah. Me, you and Trevor. Okay, so you mentioned basically that like, yes, those sales pages might have converted, but it's because they're, you're nurturing your audience inside of your own podcast sphere as well as being a guest on other people's podcasts. It doesn't mean that everybody's getting nurtured in that way I mean I do know that there are some people that just hear me say something they go to the sales page and they're like Yeah. exactly what I need and they buy it Yeah. build a business assuming that everybody functions in that way Sometimes we function in that way Yeah. what our pain point and what you know how Currently trying to solve that problem But it doesn't mean again that if someone doesn't buy your offer in 72 hours in a week that you should just write them off Something that you did in your marketing worked to bring them Yeah. audience and so what you do with them after that is up to Mm-hmm. like Yeah. I just I I get exhausted thinking about people constantly chasing the new leads And every Yeah. to a coach who's like oh well you know you need you need to expand your audience Like you need to bring in more leads before your launch I'm always like no Yeah. 700 people on my email list right now that according to what I'm seeing could potentially be a candidate for this offer I want to know why they are not buying Yeah. it's Right. but it's also Clearly they're on my email list Clearly they're opening my emails because I am the most vicious person of getting rid of people if they don't open I mean you know and I don't even pay for my number of subscribers which I think is hysterical because if you're paying for your subscribers yes don't just let dead weights sit on your email list It's one thing if they're not buying it's an entirely different thing if they are never opening your emails are just taking up space So I have always been very diligent about going through my email list you know every month every quarter whatever it is that I'm feeling And if I find people For example if they joined my email list from a bundle if they never opened the email that I sent them from the bundle and it's now been three months Yeah I'm not moving you through a cold subscriber flow No I'm just unsubscribing you Like I will just do that for you because having you sit there and never open my emails is lowering my open rate It's lowering my potential click rate So I mean health Uh your email the health of your email list is something that everybody should be paying attention to And again it's why I'm saying if you need a cash infusion if you're trying to fill your calendar go back to the people who have already paid you Go back to the people who are currently on your email list because if they are engaging with your content it might just be that you need to speak to them in a different way to get that conversion A hundred percent. And you know, like I think that there's something you had said here, , about how long does it take to actually make the sale. Because so many businesses, I think, tend to feel. Frustrated with not getting more leads or maybe having a, a small amount, like I don't have 8 million leads in a year. It wouldn't make sense for my business model , but I am very well aware that my lead to client time is long. For, for, for my higher paid projects. Obviously, you know, for like strategy calls, people will cycle through that quicker. Um, but for done, for you work, it's a long lead time. So knowing that makes me feel a million times better than just assuming that no one likes me. No one's buying and I have all these people on my list and they don't care. They do. It's just they, you know, people don't need me. Like it's like a wedding photographer. Like I'm not necessarily needed every year, every six months at all. I am needed a little bit more, you know, sparingly than that. that brings us back to the bringing people back If Yes. as the professional in your business don't know when people need your services again they Mm-hmm. And so Mm-hmm. I don't need to hire a copywriter every single year especially if my offers are not changing But do I need to make sure that my SEO is still working Hello Erin just did a sprint for me on SEO Yes Do I need that every year No But like you know your audience best and so it's kind of your job to like know when a new offer is right or a a returning offer for the exact same thing when that is right for someone who's already been a client in your business And so you need to have a way to communicate that whether it is in a one-to-one conversation inside of your CRM Or it's you're doing it to your entire email marketing list inside a flow desks kit whatever it is that you're using Um at the end of the day like there is more money to be had inside of your CRM or your email marketing program but it is really up to you to be strategic in how you are accessing that potential revenue And this is bringing it back way, way to an earlier point that I had made off something you said. It's also why a truly nurtured offboarding experience is so vastly important, right? Like, you know, you had said, you know, I'm, yeah, you might not need copywriting every year. Oh no. I could give you like an extremely long list of how you literally, no joke. I'm always trying to tell my clients like, you've come in through this door of my business. But what you don't realize is the vast amount of things that I touch or could touch in your business. SEO, blog content, case studies. Uh. Content strategy for your, your blog or content strategy for your podcast or your YouTube channel or whatever, writing those actual customer service emails, which you don't need to hire me for that. If you work with Coley, she has an actual, like email thing within her, within her program for systems and sessions or, or blueprint. Which one is it? Systems. there's templates in Blueprint Okay. in Session you get that GPT that I created Perfect. Right. which you know we could actually go off on that Erin I am struggling to make sure that people understand the value of client communication And when I open my mouth and I say oh I have an email course they automatically think email marketing and I'm like no no no I mean talking to your actual clients not Yes. On a newsletter but I mean bringing it back around you just said like a plethora of things that you will do and I know that you do all of those things Does your Yeah, you do all of those things no. Yeah. Listen. you at are you adequately communicating to people like I just did an SEO sprint with you I'm No, step would am very bad in, yes, so I'm talking to I am. coach Hat you, Uhhuh. Mm-hmm. I'm not a great marketer for my own business, but I will say to bring it back to the actual, the point that we're both making, I do. Think I do a great job explaining that to my current clients, right? Like onboarding wise, right? That does not mean, the tricky thing with me is when you know likely people come in through website copy very often, right? For more of a done for you project. This, when they offboard in the immediate stages, they are absolutely not thinking of moving forward with another project often because they just paid me a large amount. They just paid a designer a large amount and they're. I have to process this whole launch. But again, this is why a longer off-boarding phase in my business is so important. I'm gonna tell you the ways we can work together. I'm also gonna tell you how you can prioritize that because I don't wanna waste people's time or money. And then I'm gonna check back in with you and be like, Hey, this site has actually launched. Let's celebrate that. Let's also make a plan, even in this case, it might have to be for three months, like to check in three months from now so we can review that SEO. Then get started on that blogging project that we, we talked about, right? So like, it is a, you said this, it's a responsibility of the business owner, and yes, I am bad at my marketing, my own business. I will say that. But if it goes back to what we're talking about today, technically isn't that doing the right thing, right? Like talking to my actual paid audience versus trying to attract new people. Yes because as you said you are not a one trick pony There are many ways that people could continue to work with you in a copywriting capacity in their business as it goes forward And I think that if we wanted to really tie it back around to client experience making sure that you have an awesome fucking client experience to start is how you make sure That those same clients would be interested in Right. the relationship with you in working in these other you know offers that you have that are related but not the exact same thing that you did for them in the first case And so yes it is your job to have an awesome client experience in the beginning and then it is your job to do that check-in which you and I were talking about that on a call the other day I mean anybody who's doing any kind of service it is is is so important that you are checking in with your clients down the line number one to make sure that whatever it is that you did that they are utilizing it and that it's working That's when you get that like amazing client transformation data because Yeah, you work with someone on almost Every service Yes they can tell you what they liked about the process of working with you but they don't actually have results for you especially none. that are I mean if I'm setting up your systems and I'm saying you're gonna save 10 hours per week Yeah If I contact you next Friday did you save 10 hours this week The answer is not likely to be yes But if I contact you in a month and I say Hey How much time have you saved this month Did you did you have leads that came in Did you have an opportunity to test the systems The responses that I get would be even better at 60 days would be even better at 90 days So like even if you're not formally offering these kind of check-ins as part of your paid service you should absolutely be doing it because it is a way to make sure That clients are utilizing what you gave them that they are getting the results and that you do continue the relationship so that you could potentially pitch those adjacent offers down the line Yeah, and you know, I don't know if this is like us off like me offering a suggestion here to the people that are listening, but. Uh, if, if you want me to be honest, I honestly think the reason why people go so heavy in marketing or specifically social media, but in marketing in general, is because it is a, um, easy procrastination. Type of work that they do in order to avoid the things that they need to do going into, like I have dto for example. Um, and what I was gonna say, and I was thinking of when you were talking is I invested in dto. I learned how to use it, I set it up really well, but then I touched it a lot over the past three or four years, truly since. for the current launch specifically talking about that Continue Aaron Yeah, no. I mean, listen, ask me anything you want, quote me in this email. I will absolutely be your poster child for this. But the truth of the matter is, I know when I set it up, I did a really good job. I was very proud of it. I, I tested everything and it, it still mostly works, however. The gaps in it not working are obvious and bothersome. And to an average client, maybe, you know, oh no big deal. Like you got sent the wrong link or whatever. But like even like you and I think when we did this, the remember how many little hiccups we had with that sprint when we first set it up, Alvi and, and listen. Coley's, a Dip Soto person, it worked out lovely in my favor that I actually learned how to do something new, but. How much easier, especially me being a writer, how much easier is it for me to like write a blog post on anything, literally anything I can think of and dream up in my head than it is to go back into the sodo. And for me, honestly, I'd have to look at my notes to make sure I, why I did it in the first place the way that I did, and, and kind of crosscheck and say, oh, is that correct? Oh, no, no. Oh, here's where I messed up. Here's where I adjusted the workflow and fix it. It is so much more fun to think about creating content to post that content, to get feedback or praise from people on something that we have created. Even if it's like a B roll reel, right? Like that's even easier than a blog post than it is to. Touch the things that we need to touch to have a better client experience, to have more sales in all of that. Right. So, you know, I think I said I was gonna lead with a lesson that's not really a, that's more of a, I'm preaching at you, but I think maybe like take what I just said and really analyze if you're doing that in your own business, because I think. That's where the majority of people, myself included, many times, fall into that trap of creating more and more and more marketing stuff instead of just doing the work that they need to do. I feel like it's also people wanna be anonymous and I'm Yeah. explain that cause it doesn't really make a lot of sense But I think that people do that because when you're marketing in general like the word marketing is one to many You are putting these things out here Even if you are Even if you're emailing people you're doing it to an entire list You're not going into Gmail and typing out their name and then typing the message and then sending it You're writing the email one time You're selecting all the people that you want it to go to and then you're doing it And honestly in most cases it's not even that granular Like you're not selecting the people you're selecting a segment or you're sending it to your whole list You can be very anonymous In that in that you are not having a direct one-to-one conversation And I think that that's why people don't wanna do what I'm telling them to do because I'm telling you to have one-to-one conversations And even if you're automating it you are having a one-to-one conversation with someone as they move through your client experience There is a chance they're going to reject you There is a chance they're going to say no So you would rather spend time on creating this content and your marketing and putting it out there on Instagram to where you're not really talking to one person And if someone says yes it's like yay this person said yes But if you do it and it's a one-to-one conversation and They tell you no You know you do feel a little bit defeated but that's why I feel like we have to flip the mindset We have to understand that what's that collecting nos or whatever it is Like you're gonna collect so many nos before you get a yes But the Yeah. come In most cases the yes will come or that particular person on your newsletter or your client list or whatever it is they will see themselves out if Yes. longer a fit for them whether it's you gave them a bad client experience or they are just now beyond the services that you offer They will go find someone else and they will figure out a way to exit your business And Yeah. like do all of your marketing Don't set up how you are going to spend the time in your business trying to bring in um new booked clients By making those decisions on whether or not you're gonna get rejected by someone personally telling you no If they tell you no now it's probably not a no forever try again in six months and see if there are circumstances changed or if you have simply created an offer that is more aligned with what they actually need now versus what you offered them six months ago I think there's just a beautiful thing of, um, getting comfortable with rejection. I have a, a on an award-winning literary journal that myself and a peer, um, co-founded after our MFA program. Um, I think we've published 15 or 16 episodes at this point, along with some mini episodes and. Before that when I was still in my MFA program and just starting to submit my own creative writing essays, nonfiction, fiction, all that stuff. Oh, I was so heartbroken when I got my rejections, it felt like an extreme personal rejection, not just of me, but of the, my actual craft, like. You're not a good writer. I don't know why you went down this nonfiction route. You should have stayed poetry, but guess what? You're a horrible poet too. Like, right? Like that's how it felt. Truly, the, the, one of the biggest gifts I've ever had was that literary journal in the sense that, and I tell people this constantly. I send thousands of rejections a year, and in those thousands of rejections, so many of them. Quality writing that I would have published. Maybe I'm not publishing them because I've already accepted like something quite similar for that exact issue. Maybe I'm not publishing them because I've already published them once or twice and I just, I can't have it be completely about them. Maybe I'm not publishing them because like 500 reasons, right? Like, it, it does not have to be about you, but it's tough to kind of get over that hump of, of, of not seeing rejection as a personal thing. I, what I'm trying to say with this example is I think if you can go into the practice of getting rejected, then you do realize, oh, it's not that bad of a thing. Like this is not actually about me. There's so much that I can learn from rejections and it gives me so many opportunities to improve on so many things because when you're rejected in certain ways, you can take, you know the lessons you've learned from them and, and adjust So. I don't know, practice getting rejected, I guess. Is that the takeaway here? Like go out and practice? Yeah, collect, go collect those nos. Don't let it bring you down. Just know that it's just a, a normal part of actively putting yourself out there.'cause the only people who are absolutely 100% guaranteed not to succeed are the people who are not putting themselves out there. try Yes Right. All right. Coley, I feel like, listen, we're, it's getting a long episode. Yeah. we're looking at the clock and we have decided that we are going to wrap this up because Mm-hmm. I could just talk for another hour and if you wanna hear more of a conversation she's gonna be on my podcast soon so it's all good Mm-hmm talk about their business, and I thought it was so fun. I don't wanna do the same thing with Coley, but I would love to have Coley on here somewhat regularly talking about things like this. So maybe when this episode goes live, we can put a little like questionnaire in the show notes, like. What would you like Erin and Coley to talk about? All right, listen, thank you. Thanks for coming, Coley. I'm gonna shut my mouth now. Everyone go listen to Business First Creative podcast., And that's it really. Uh, Coley, you have anything else to say? I don't because I literally said I'm not taking anything because by the time this episode airs I'm not doing anything special in January except for sitting my ass in a chair and doing client work Like Yes. things going on with my course I have things going on with my done with you I'm like there will be nothing new until February So I mean come listen to the podcast That is my ask of you please and thank Is the, is this not good timing though, right? Like you are coming on the show. You are providing value, you're making it clear, like there's no hard pitch here. It's not like by the time this episode goes live, you have three days to enroll in Coley's, X, Y, Z. Nope. That gives you like at least a solid month at this point. To learn about Coley is if she's new to you, right? Get in her world, like develop trust and figure out whether you know you want to buy from her in the future, and then keep your. Ears out, you know, keep your eyes open and see what she's got coming for you. Once January kind of rolls through and she has survived the beginning of 2026. Well Aaron Alright. for having me on and I can't wait for our next conversation Alright. I'll see you next week. Where? Actually no, I won't see you next week. Where we keep talking. Copy. I'll see you in 2026. You fools. Where we keep talking coffee. Alright, bye.